For my oral interview project I interviewed Marta Ceroni who is a Forest Ecologist from Italy. She is currently the Executive Director of the Donella Meadows Institute in Norwich, VT. This organization strives to promote sustainability through systems thinking. They look at sustainability from various aspects including the economy and the environment and try to find ways to create sustainability within them simultaneously. She has participated in international development projects in ecology and has a very good understanding of what constitutes a successful project. In this interview we discussed some philosophical questions as well as some more ecology related questions, all related specifically to development in Nicaragua. Below you will find an audio recording of our interview as well as a transcript of the more important parts of our discussion.
Interview Transcript
Rafael: What constitutes a successful development project?
Marta: First of all, the most important thing would be to understand what the baseline is. So, starting with where we are with things. To me having a sense of the data but also looking back[to see]how things have been changing overtime [is important]. I think the most motivating piece of this [a successful development project] is a vision and often times the vision piece is forgotten or postponed or left to the side and I think what a vision does, not to mention of course a shared vision, is it elevates the space of the discussions of what type of quality of life people want. There is no doubt they come from the assumption that this vision is brought up by the local people…I think it [a vision] requires that sort of creative energy to come up with good collaborations and good networks.
Really not jumping into a list of to-dos because sometimes the problems are so acute and so difficult, think about corruption, drugs, violence, ecosystem degradation, the most immediate response is to problem solve right away. One quality of a good systems based sustainable developer is that of holding that tension between the crude reality and the things to be and to emerge with the level of presence that enables to generate creative solutions. In a way it’s a very deep commitment to holding to a vision or creating the space and the quality of the conversation to have a discussion on a vision. Beyond that what’s been proven to be very effective is a network approach which comes from a systems perspective. [Issues should be looked at from this perspective] If you want to achieve systemic change because violence, ecosystem degradation, corruption, they are all systems problems meaning that it is a problem that shows up in multiple places, at all levels, always. It’s a pervasive problem that doesn’t go away by just putting in one solution at a time.
It [development] requires a set of solutions. Most importantly what’s been shown to have power to succeed is actually an approach called collective impact in which you bring the whole system on the table even if you don’t think that these parts are directly related. Then you really start from the different NGOs, government, funders, businesses. They start doing something slightly different than they were doing in order to align around a shared agenda and then they have reinforcing activities. This meaning that they check back in, they have continuous communication, and most important of all they have a so-called backbone organization. This one institution serves as a connector. Important also is sharing metrics. If we have a vision together then that vision translates in broad goals and objectives and [the question arises as to] how we are going to measure our success towards those goals. Sometimes these goals are difficult [like the goal to] bring poverty to zero. You want to be ambitious because it might take a while but you want that goal to be ambitious. [You ask yourself] What does it look like to have zero poverty over the next 20 years and then you start crafting your vision. Well, from this angle of education it would look like this, from this angle of social justice intervention it would look like this, etc. This [systems thinking] is to me what’s been very promising.
Rafael- What difference can volunteers like us, college students, make? Are we actually making a difference? Is it [volunteering] more benefiting those who volunteer rather than those that they are helping?
Marta- When you say does this make a difference or it just helps the volunteers it shouldn’t be discounted that the feeling that you develop as a volunteer is actually powerful because it’s going to empower you as a change-maker maybe in other communities and other environments. In a way you are cultivating that quality of being a change-maker by doing that. You need those practical experiences. So not to be discounted, I think it’s part of your life skills that need to be sharpened and kept alive and you need that boost. It’s very important to show up for this non-profit [Bridges to Community]. It’s important for the communities to be listened to even if your impact may not necessarily reach everybody or may not be life changing. There is value in having that constant presence and at the lowest level just being able to listen and witness.
-Recounts experience in Mexico in which just her presence alleviated the community
By doing these interventions [ volunteering] you do help especially if you find a way to have that continued flow of services out of your initial services. Lets say you are working on the adoption on the development of an alternative wood stove that is safer, more effective, more efficient. Many of those projects tend to fail either for technological design or because the adoption rate is not so high. They get used for a little while and then go back to the norm. The solution is not just I’m going to build this awesome stove and new technologies. [Rather] I’m going to do the training and be there for the longer term. The impact would be sustained as long as there are ways for people that get disengaged with this particular technology to reengage back or to maintain that type of knowledge or technical skill.
Rafael- What can be done to end exploitation of the Bosawás in all facets?
Marta- There is this dimension of bringing in more eyes, of having external observers to this. In theory you could expose this problem. More media, more documentaries [can be used] to the point that the government cannot ignore this anymore. There are ways to expose this but it needs to be done tactfully depending on what’s at stake. There are conventions that basically secure (on paper of course) the rights of the indigenous people to their resources and biodiversity in particular. Essentially pushing these levers of international treaties that would bring in this international interest [would benefit this situation].
Rafael- Is it ethical to market this biosphere [for ecotourism] where indigenous people live?
Is there a way it [development of ecotourism] can be done tactfully?
Marta- It [ecotourism] would need to be run by them. That the benefits stay local is the most important thing. [We have to ask] What other things would come with that inflow of ecotourists? That [ecotourism] brings other cultural norms and businesses. Maybe it’s a good way to bring in that 3rd party like more of an observation from external groups. This meaning that it would be more difficult to squat and abuse the land [in the Bosawás]. The government might pay more attention and become more collaborative. There is value being generated. That’s what caused Costa Rica to become Costa Rica.